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Horfixion
July 12, 2005 at 19:14:26
I guess that's why the kids in middle america are turning to extreme Metal, because it's not kosher, because their afraid to be scorned by others, because their afraid to be different and out of the ordinary? What hole have you been hiding in all these years? Extreme metal is not "the norm", and it's never going to be "mainstream", not even Dimmu Borgir or Satyricon, not going to happen in this decade anyway. Look at the popularity of "indie rock", it's not mainstream music, but it is gaining popularity with the "normal folk," those who are looking for a little variation in their life. It's the same thing with extreme metal, it's attracting a certain percentage of the mainstream folk looking for somethin different. Have you had the opportunity to go to a bantam age (13/14 year olds) hockey game. I have, and do you know what music they are listening to in the dressing room before the game? Yes, it's "extreme metal"! Mainstream "hockey mom" has to deal with it...why wouldn't you?
Cuchulainn
July 12, 2005 at 17:48:01
When in the hell did listening to extreme metal become normal??? Did I miss the memo on that one??? I don't know about all of you but I'm usually scorned for wearing a studded leather wristband and a "Cradle of Filth" or "Lamb of God" shirt around becuase it makes other people uncomfortable... So, I'd have to disagree with Horfixion that "normal" people listen to extreme metal in the public's eye... No, I'm sorry, I don't know where you live but it's not kosher in most places I've been to... Can normal law-abiding citizens listen to metal??? Absolutely, but you will be scorned by the mainstream "soccer mom" America because you are different... And "normal" people are afraid of different and out of the ordinary, because they don't know what to expect out of those people... So they group people who love the music we listen to as "criminals", "Satanists", etc. Thats my two cents...
Dan
July 12, 2005 at 10:29:12
Hey Clay, check out Dissection, although they fall under black/death metal. They're kick ass.
Horfixion
July 12, 2005 at 04:36:45
Excelver - Believe me, I’m grasping every word. Your definition of “normal people” is...sorry, “YOUR WORKING” definition of “normal people” is distorted, inaccurate and fallacious. I never said “normal people” did not enjoy “mainstream” things, they just don’t all enjoy MTV, Malls and fast food, I guess that means they don’t ALL fall under “your definition” of “normal people.” You know, even if you refuse to acknowledge it, there are “qualitative” differences in the way many “normal people” think. Perhaps “narrow-minded” and “qualitative” are words that are being used “interchangeably”, BUT they do have different meanings. Furthermore, you’re starting to sound a lot like those “bored self-indulgent dorks” you so eloquently talked about on another post: “So if they are content to appreciate the music in itself, why contribute to all the typical message board bullshit that only makes black metal fans look like bored, self-induldgent dorks?” Stop the bullshit, stop engaging in such banalities, stop being a “dork” and leave “normal people” enjoy whatever music they fucking want...deal with it!
Clay
July 12, 2005 at 03:20:26
I never understood all the hate for Dimmu ... I like them quite a bit, especially since they have a halfway decent production and orchestras and crap... You don't see a lot of black metal bands doing that. I dunno, most black metal has crappy production and fails to impress me for the most part. Unless of course, someone can tell me some bands I'm missing out on.
Excelver
July 12, 2005 at 00:40:47
Few quick points:
-If you consider clowns like Demon Burger to be representative of black metal (as is implied by your statements), no wonder you cannot grasp a word of what I have been saying.
-I don't write the rules for normality. I simply observe. Yes, normal people are generally devoid of originality and usually don't enjoy non-mainstream things. It's not my fault for pointing it out.
-If they don't enjoy mainstream society, then they clearly fall outside our working definition of 'normal', don't they? What's the conflict there?
-Be it noted that 'narrow-minded' is often interchangable with 'qualitative' when used by those in disagreement.

As a footnote, on any other forum I likely would not have started arguing my point, much less continued. I'm just not so detached that I refrain from defending the home turf, so to speak.

Horfixion
July 11, 2005 at 11:59:58
Obviously, you are VEXED by whatever you consider to be "normal"! I am judgemental of people like you just as you are judgemental of people like me! You are an elitist, I don't have to qualify you with words such as "stuck up" or "asshole"? That is not called for. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am mine. I believe I've contributed much to this discussion and would like to clarify exactly what it is that was pissing me off about your coment dated July 11th, in which you stated: "I think it's clear that they have forsaken the essential qualities of this kind of music." That kind of thinking is just plain stupid and nothing but bullshit. You coundn't possibly know this for a fact? You are jumping to conclusions and assuming too much. And you know what they say about people who assume, make an ASS out of U and ME. The same can be said for the following comments you also made in the very same post: "Normal is watching MTV and hanging out at shopping malls. Normal people are mesmerized by fast food and cable TV." Does being "normal" mean you must be devoid of any originality? That you can't enjoy anything but whatever the mainstream masses consider to be normal? Are you "braindead" Excelver? Well, my point is, neither are some "normal" people who need a little variation in their lives, and don't enjoy watching MTV or hanging out at malls or fast food and cable tv. So, "normal" people can and DO enjoy different things, yes Excelver, even Black Metal! The fact that you are still arguing your point is admirable and I understand your attitude as an elitist which also explains much about your narrow-mindedness. Oh, and BTW, I'm not super-pissed, I'm just happy to be here to get another view-point into the discussion!
Excelver
July 11, 2005 at 11:09:16
Not vexed at all myself, but it's fine with me if I've vexed you to such a degree. It's appropriate for guys like me to piss off guys like you just by being here. Another thing that's typcial about normal people: they're very anti-judgemental. If you judge, chances of your offending someone escalate (we've seen this already). Normal people don't like offending others, because it makes them unpopular, and in worse cases leads to confrontation, and the norm abhores confrontation. Of course, this doesn't stop people from making judgements as a group, i.e. 'Excelver is a stuck-up elitist asshole' as it may be, but that's just more herd mentality at work. Don't be afraid to judge others, it's a part of social reality (what little of that remains).

As for that lengthy platitude, I believe I've already addressed that issue (or non-issue, rather) below. Try to contribute, although this doesn't seem like your kind of discussion. You'll just get more pissed off... in fact you're probably getting super-pissed just reading this. Ask yourself why.

Horfixion
July 11, 2005 at 09:26:01
“YOU SHOULD NOT JUDGE OTHER PEOPLES TASTE IN MUSIC.” Excelver, you’re so critical of “idiotic mainstreamers” and of apparent “rock n' roll BM bands...Satyricon and DB” and of the “normal” folk of America who apparently have “hijacked” Black Metal that you are starting to really piss me off? There is an essay I found about this subject I’d like to share with you, I’ve taken the liberty of modifying a few words here and there, it is titled: “Worried about little Johnny’s taste in Music, WHY?”: “In the world of extreme metal, many think that there must be something terribly wrong with people who listen to Death Metal or Black Metal. Parents are often shocked when they learn that little Johnny is listening to Children of Bodom, Emperor and RC. They immediately jump to conclusions, “my God, have you gone mad, what is this shit,” and they think his behavior is "abnormal" simply because of the music he listens too. They often feel vexed by little Johnny’s “abnormal deviation” in music. So they take away little Johnny’s CD collection of music that they consider “inappropriate.” Of course they associate his rebellious behavior to the music. Only now little Johnny is totally pissed and he brings home Rage Against the Machine and plays “Killing in the name of” on his stereo and raises the volume when Zack de la Rocha sings: “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me, fuck you I won’t do what you tell me, fuck you I won’t do what you tell me...mother fucker!” Johnny is even more determined than ever. Then he plays “Settle for Nothing” and “Bullet in the Head.” And this music is considered alternative/heavy metal, not even close to Death or Black Metal. Maybe next time little Johnny brings home some “gangster rap.” Oh yeah, isn’t there more violence associated with this style and genre of music? What is being “normal” anyway? Are we trying to create a society that is “normal”, devoid of any originality? We should all be listening to the same mainstream music everybody else is listening to just because that is the “norm.” How exciting that would be, a world without opinions, without individuality, without a say or a choice in the music we listen to? Is the fact that I enjoy extreme music and listen to RC make me any different than the guy who listens to Enrique Iglesias and Ricky Martin all day long? And maybe if I listened to Enrique and Ricky all day long that might be enough to push me over the edge and make me want to commit suicide? I don’t really know, but I did know a 14 year old kid who enjoyed country music, Alabama and Johnny Cash and the likes. When he committed suicide, nobody said it was because of the music, but had he been into Death or Black Metal, I’m sure somebody would have mentioned something about the music. I don’t want to start a debate or anything, I am not a doctor nor do I pretend to have all the answers. My intention is only to share my thoughts regarding certain misconceptions that I feel exist about people who enjoy different genres of music that are not considered by many to be acceptable or appropriate for the mainstream masses. Just because someone enjoys a certain style and genre of music does not mean that they have mental health problems or that these people are qualitatively different from the rest of the world. Although I’ll agree that they are part of a minority but not because they have a broken brain or because some people think they have a few loose nuts. Why I listen to the music I listen too is simply a matter of personal taste. The fact that I enjoy something different may only be a natural variation in my life. My taste in music has absolutely nothing to do with my behavior. The fact that I enjoy extreme metal does not make me any more dangerous than the next guy. In fact, I’m a law abiding citizen, married with three children. I own a car and a home and some musical equipment. I consider myself to be a regular/normal guy, so just because my neighbor thinks I have a dangerous and severe personality disorder, does not make it so. He is not a doctor. He is though entitled to his opinion just as I’m entitled to mine. So I politely replied: “Please don’t label me a sick person, I’m not a danger to anybody nor are most mentally Ill people...now get the fuck off my property you dumb fuck.” Then I punished him with fifteen minutes of total metal madness...well, maybe he was right after all! ;) Just as you should not judge a book by it’s cover, you should not judge a band by it’s cover, nor should you judge little Johnny’s taste in music either. In RC’s case, the cover of Khronos 666 has Jesus on a Cross, crucified, and although one might think that the album is full of songs about religion and/or nonsense thoughts about religion, the truth is simply that you should not judge a band by it’s cover or by it’s “sick” name for that matter. Sample lyrics to “If it ends tomorow”: So close to me / the younger must stay / nothing more to see / nothing more to say / coming to an end / before the night is over / trying to pretend / the time is not over / emotions hard and rough / I am getting old / is it enough? / this isn't the goal / the cure I can find / only deep within me / no man can save me / no man can help me. Sample lyrics to “My sacred path”: Dangerous eyes gleamed like fire / unending lies unfulfilled desire / I had the intent to express my innocence / I am endless I am fearless / too many answers only one matter / the downfall is imminent, ruthless ignorance. Sample lyrics to “Aeternatus”: Trust me, I shall stab you in your back / See me, I have died in the past / Hear me, I scream my silent thoughts / I am the liar. NOW, these are all thought provoking lyrics, but nothing that would send people running over the edge to commit suicide? At least, I don’t think so. But many parents would judge this Black Metal band by it’s name: “Rotting Christ.” Go figure, a band with a name like that writing thought provoking lyrics? Little Johnny’s taste in music might not be a problem after all...” EXCELVER, are you one of those people who also feels VEXED? Some people may be attracted to Black Metal because of its EVIL connotations but there will always be some "normal people" who enjoy Black Metal because it is "different" and because it may very well be something they enjoy and a "natural variation" in their life. Deal with it!
Excelver
July 11, 2005 at 02:36:17
To start, let's quit complaining about stereotypes. You're worrying about what the general public thinks about black metal? Fuck them, let them arrive at their own feeble conclusions. I wouldn't care if a six-year old waiting for the school bus called me a butthead, and likewise I don't care if some idiotic mainstreamer calls me a satanic pothead. Let them- my self-image is not imformed by their appraisal.

As for black metal being 'normal'... well, the short answer is no, it isn't (or wasn't). Maybe the rock n' roll BM bands such as satyricon, DB, etc. are, but I think it's clear that they have forsaken the essential qualities of this kind of music. Of course people like me are disgusted that the name of this music is hijacked by 'normal' kids. You are in America, do you see what is 'normal' in this country? Normal is watching MTV and hanging out at shopping malls. Normal people are mesmerized by fast food and cable TV. Look back to the people who founded black metal; do you think they did it to be cool and be the next pop phenomenon? Trust me, black metal ideology was meant to be quite the antithesis of 'normal'. Why do you think the whole 'evil' aesthetic was considered so essential?

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